Vision Meets Innovation: Leading in Life Sciences with David Esposito

Hi. My guest today is David Esposito. He is an experienced health care CEO and combat veteran. He has built and scaled multiple health care companies in his career, and currently, he is the CEO at ONL Therapeutics. I hope you enjoy this conversation.

Thanks, David, for being on this episode. I'm excited to have, this conversation with you. So I want to know a little bit more about you and your background and and and about ONL. Fill me in on on what you're doing there.

Hey. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. Sure. David Esposito.

Right now, I'm the CEO of ONL Therapeutics. So ONL is a mid stage biotech company focused on some of the large diseases of the eye, like glaucoma and AMD. I can give you a little bit more specifics of the company, but we're based in Ann Arbor, Michigan. My journey in health care is a little bit over thirty years. Started off my career in large pharma, in sales, marketing, commercial strategy.

Then the back half of my career has been more in the early mid stage of life sciences, building both diagnostic and therapeutic companies. It's been an exciting journey, certainly, where we are today. A great deal of the innovation in life sciences is done in the early stage with privately held venture capital funded companies, and that's where ONL sits today. We've raised a successive rounds of financing series a, b, c, and most recently series d round of financing to run large phase two clinical trials with our lead compound. Teams are working hard, and we're hoping to be able to, at the end of the day, prove that our technology can really help patients see better across a wide range of diseases of the eye.

So give me a idea on the on the science behind what you're doing because I, you know, I I scratched the surface on your website, but give a little more detail about what it is specifically that you're you're developing for.

Sure. So we have a therapeutic. It's a small peptide that's injected into the eye, very similar to conditions if the audience is familiar with wet AMD. Many times those patients get an injection of a therapeutic in the eye. So we're a small peptide.

It's designed to be injected in the eye. Our drug blocks this receptor called the FAS receptor, FAS, on the surface of retinal cells. So regardless of the disease or stress of the eye, things like glaucoma, age related macular degeneration, those stressors or disease cause that receptor, the fast receptor, to be activated, and that triggers the death of retinal cells. And unlike, skin cells where they regenerate retinal cells in the eye, once they're dead, they're dead. There's no regeneration.

And so our drug, ONL twelve o four, small peptide, blocks that fast receptor. So regardless of the disease, the drug by blocking that receptor protects them, keeps those retinal cells alive, quiets the inflammatory response that often accompanies disease state. So we see there's large, application of this fast receptor technology to be able to protect retinal cells, ultimately protect the eye to be able to see transduce light and see just like you would expect it to be.

Right. Interesting. And I think I read that glaucoma is one of the conditions that that you work with as well. Right?

It it very much is. So across

probably one that people are most most familiar with. Right?

Very much so. Actually, my, since we touched on my career, I started off over thirty years ago selling, a drug called Timolol or Tomoptic, a brand name which lowers the intraocular pressure in the eye Right. Oh, actually glaucoma.

I've heard that before. God, I my mom had glaucoma, actually. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, that was a and it's definitely a way it's it's a maintenance thing because I don't think glaucoma is actually something you can cure.

It's it's something that you have

to maintain. Technologies, ours included, are trying to slow the progression of glaucoma that way. There are some, you know, gene therapies and cell therapeutics that that may potentially revamp things, but most of the, drugs today are certainly on just slowing the damaging progress that a disease like glaucoma does.

Right. Right. Right. Okay. So interesting, though.

Like, how did, how did you go from civil engineering to this?

Well, the the short answer is I wasn't that great of a civil engineer. But the other answer was, you know,

I I always as I so I was active duty in the army. I got a civil engineering degree from West Point. I was in the army infantry for a while. So at the time when I when I moved off of active duty, the life science industry always seemed to be a a high growth industry. A lot of the large pharma companies were really, at that time, ramping up their commercial efforts towards large drugs.

The statin class of therapeutics, was a part of that as well. And so, you know, I I had at least a a disciplined, scientific background in civil engineering, but really saw the growth opportunities, in life sciences and was fortunate enough to come on board with a company Merck, one of the large pharma companies, to begin that journey. But I think the truth was I

was never that sharp of an engineer and

tried to do the best of it just as a as a

hustle and salesperson for a while.

That wasn't fair. You do have a bachelor of science as well. I just thought it was funny that you had the well, I mean, my my colleague has a forestry and and he's a forestry engineer, and he lives in the marketing world. So I, you know, I constantly will ask him, why did you get here anyway? I don't understand.

Anyways, that's great. And so and so somewhere along the way, you kind of transitioned into be more of a business leader, and and you've been a CEO a couple of times. You've helped with a couple of acquisitions. So at what point did you see yourself transitioning from, into that aspect of the business?

No. It's a great question. I think, you know, part of my journey of of leadership and growth, certainly at West Point, my time in the army, you you've kind of, one, learned to to follow. That's kind of the first principle. Learn to follow, be useful, get work done, and then continue to develop to grow to perhaps lead teams and and individuals.

So that that spark of of leadership and the journey certainly began at my time at West Point and then in the army. And then when I got into the corporate world, that similar kind of thought process. You know, I enjoyed being an individual contributor in case of sales and in marketing, but also seemed to really, find purposeful work in developing people individually and then collectively to help a team accomplish tasks. And so I had a good foundational training in a large company like Merck where good entry level management training and then scaling that up, I always felt was just a tremendous learning experience. But I kind of really desire to see of of some real purposeful work and trying to see people grow and develop and and build teams.

And so that brought me to the journey of the leadership that I'm on today when I ended up transitioning out of a large pharma company, got into more early stage biotech. I think that's where the other dimensions of leadership of not just leading teams to execute upon a a common mission, but the dimensions of, alright, how do you how do you really build a team from scratch? How do you finance a team? How do you finance technology? So the my own leadership journey beyond just, being a a, you know, a very intentional people manager, when you start to scale businesses, it puts your leadership, to the test, and, you know, I've I've developed a few skills that way.

Also, learned from a couple, couple mistakes in my journey as well.

Alright. Well, mistakes is where we do most of our learning. So, let's tap in. Share some of those some of your learnings in there. Like, what kind of what kind of challenges did you face that you would consider as those mistakes, you know, that you helped that you worked through?

Yeah. I think well, I I think the side of it is when you move into the early mid stage of life science and biotech, one is the science is tough. So even in the greatest of circumstances, sometimes the diseases are so complex. The science, or technology is just not up to the task at that time. You know?

Right. And that's a part of it. But I do think some of the the principles around leadership and team building that I can recall. So most of my journey has been in first in class innovative either therapeutics, diagnostics, or med devices. And I think there's always this healthy tension between the actual technology and the science should trump all other things, regardless of perhaps customer understanding and appreciation or market fit, those kind of terms.

And I think we're one particular company that I was a part of and and working with. There was a a really clear miss in terms of the technology was brilliant, what it did. This was a disinfectant technology for hospital acquired infection. Brilliant technology. The challenge of the fit in hospitals where turnovers to beds are trying to get thirty minutes, not two hours, difficulties in operationalizing that technology.

And I think those those challenges, not addressed in a timely fashion. What usually happens is you you burn through money quicker than you think. And as opposed to pivoting that technology to perhaps a more effective use case, you end up running out of gas sometimes. And and the challenge with some of those, when investors lose a little bit of faith in in funding it, the money dries up and the technology could have been great, but perhaps not applied in the right case. I think that's, you know, one example.

The other one is some of these are, like, classic business school examples. Right? The technology is great, but doesn't quite fit. Another one where, you know, the technology can go can actually apply almost everywhere, and you struggle to make very disciplined choices on where to go first, a beachhead market or something like that. Right.

Right.

At the end of our day, our our world, you you burn time and money, and there's never enough of that.

Well, no one else seems very niche. Like, it seems like it's a very, it's it's and and it's not a huge company either too. Right? It's a it's a nice sized company. How many employees do you have there?

Sure. So we have, 15 employees full time. Most of them are here in Ann Arbor. We also have some remote. We also work with about kinda double that in terms of consultants that support us.

Sure. Yeah. Contract. Yep.

But that's a nice size for managing people, managing scalability, and things like that. Because what you were talking before, I mean, health care typically has so many different avenues. You've got you're you're managing not only patient or or outcome for for the end user, but the providers and the suppliers, and then you've got investors. And and so there's it's a it's a it's a complex system to try and navigate, especially as the leader of that organization. And then the larger the company, the more complicated it gets.

But you brought up a good point. It's about, you know, you're talking about working with people. I mean, this is also the people industry too. Right? And you can't do anything without the people.

And so, you know, my impression of you is that you you've got a great way about you at communicating with people. It seems to be your skill set is is working with people and building teams. So how how do you infuse your own personal philosophies around leadership and and people management into your day to day?

Well, he's both hey. Thanks for the kind word. I appreciate it. I I think I've, you know, tried to be a a student of leadership over time and and really understand from, you know, a few shortcomings and how you adjust and go forward. I I do think at the end of the day, some of the some of the classic things that most people would talk about, well, you know, where's the team headed?

Where's that really direction? Whether it's goals, objectives, ultimately, in in my world, in early stage today, it's it's you're being funded to execute upon a certain plan. So let's define that as clearly as we can, so that individuals and teams know where we're headed and can make work plans towards. I think those basic things are a part of it. I I think the other piece, though, to make it really sustainable is you really want each individual on the team to see what their role, their particular function, their objectives, how they matter to the delivery of the team's objectives, and how that rolls in broadly to the company's objectives.

So even though we're a small team, but the principle holds true for big teams as well to to really build and sustain energy in a world that's really difficult. Science is difficult, all the things. But to really make sure how each individual of the team sees the importance of their role as part of the bigger picture. And then in in our world, defining that bigger picture, our our vision for our company is to help patients see the future. It's like a purposeful rallying cry.

Right. Right. Right. You can

build some energy when I think people understand, alright. This is what what my tasks are. Boy, it ties to this bigger team's projective and where we're going. You hope with some good encouragement, pats on the back, and a couple kinda stirring conversations if we're coming off the rails keeps people excited to keep going in the journey.

Mhmm. Right. And and particularly, like, when you were I saw you were kinda working on had done some mergers or a couple acquisitions along the way. So, I mean, that kinda even comes in as really important when you're trying to transition from, into a almost a completely different entity for an organization. And how do you how do you kind of manage that sort of morale and and shift in in perspective?

That's that's a great question, and it's tough. It is. You know, when even in our own journey in o and l and maybe a couple of my, prior companies, They originate with three or four folks around the table, and then all of a sudden, you're 10. That's like two to three x the size, you know, and now 50. You know?

So even that has this aspect of, hey. I kinda like it the way it used to be feeling. But certainly in the the transactions you're describing and the acquisition of a team and the company and the technology, you know, the practical side of it is in each of these stages, whether it's raising money or through an acquisition, the the company does, in essence, get absorbed by the others. And and quite frankly, not everybody makes the journey. You know?

There are Yeah. Certain there are certain leaders. There are team members that just have a a a much more purposeful fit in super early stage. Some have a better fit in terms of large companies. The resources are there.

And having gone through a few of those, I think there's the truth of the matter is some stay in the journey because it's kinda what they see is good work and others don't. And I and I think part of it, though, though, I I just emphasize there still is that nature of moving the technology forward. And sometimes sometimes that gets lost a little bit in a large acquisition, and that's why I think there's a you you hire a lot of folks to help support kind of that change management as things come down to the team.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. That's a good point. And innovation and technology just seems to be moving faster and faster all the time.

So, you know, that that challenge probably is is ongoing for a lot of organizations, particularly

now. Yeah. I mean, the practical side too, Heath, in my journey of thirty plus years in this, you know, it was not it it was a common practice where most of at least drugs, diagnostics, and devices originated from large companies. If you looked at portfolios thirty years ago, 80% of them were in house developed technologies. Over the course of twenty, thirty years, it's flipped where

Yeah.

70 to 80% of marketed products have been acquired by private company you know, large companies buying private companies. So that that pace of innovation

Interesting. Yeah.

Is fast on the outside, and I think the large companies have seen that reality, and that's why they've really ramped up a lot of their business development activities.

Is that because the r and d stage is maybe a little bit easier to do in a small, you know, in a small environment rather than from in a large organization like that? Is it easier to kinda do it started in that spot and then and then go the go big afterwards?

You know, it's it's a it's a it's a great question. There is some speed, to the development of a small company, but you need a lot of resources to

do it.

I I I really think in many ways, it's become a it's a it's a risk sharing principle, you know, where I think, large companies with a large base of existing portfolio are placing their bets more dollars on scaling that existing portfolio and then look opportunistic for deals on the outside, and they're shifting that risk of development onto venture capital and private privately funded, businesses. I would also say too that you know, especially in in today's environment, I mean, you know, the early stage innovative discovery work done in most of the academic research centers in The US Mhmm. A lot of that is NIH funded grants that

Right.

Professors and researchers do, and those dollars are essential to have that bedrock of scientific discovery done. And that's an important part of the ecosystem as big companies perhaps shifted risk to venture funded stage companies like ours. There still is that baseline level of discovery work that the NIH in in my world today still funds a lot.

Yeah. It's a seeding it's a seeding ground. Right? It's where the ideas get planted and then and if you find out where what sprouts and then take it from there.

Very much so. And it's you know, and even, you know, a couple of the companies I mentioned or talked about that technologies didn't get to market. Even where we are with ONL, we have a long journey before getting to a marketed approved product. I mean, the truth is a a lot of these technologies don't end up getting commercialized because of variety of reasons, but the learnings that companies make, there's a great deal of sharing those learnings to hopefully accelerate discovery down the road, and that that's an important part of it.

Well, yeah, and I think you're the source of from what my conversations I've had is that the people that are, you know, originating some of these ideas are the you know, at the kinda ground level of research and and, you know, the the the foundation of their vision is always about outcome, you know, making change and positive change in in people's lives. And I I think that's kinda where it always starts. And then in your experience, how do you manage from from going from that into large business and maintaining a sense of that sort of positive human outcome?

Well, that's terrific. Because you you can you can get lost in the day to day grind of whether it's one side of the business raising capital, another side of the business managing that capital, another side, the complexity of the science. You know, we, with with ONL, try to consistently over time discuss that we're still on this journey specifically to alleviate pain and suffering of disease, specific in our case to eyesight and help patients in the future. It it's important for teams and leaders and companies to consistently make that connection. We're very fortunate.

The founder of our company, David Zacks, is a retina specialist at the University of Michigan. He still sees patients in clinic every week. Oh, wow. So that that, reconnection with the reality of the journey we're on is is very important because it it can get lost in the in the intensity of the day to day grind. And to your point, I I I think it's one of the more helpful anchors during tough times to remind everybody where we're going, why we're headed that way.

And David does a great job of of bringing that to the table just about every day to the team when we need it. But it's it's important for teams to reconnect that way. No doubt.

Oh, yeah. That's a great point. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting that, yeah, when when the people you know are still at at ground zero or red frontline and then communicating with patients and getting that immediate feedback is that's that's critical.

Yeah. So have you been in with ONL since day one?

No. I've not. I joined ONL about six years or so ago. A company that I was leading, a cancer diagnosis company, to your point, got acquired, and it was just for a transition. And some institutional investors in that company, Arimmune Bioscience was the name of it.

They had also invested in O and L. O and L was looking for a leadership change. So the company's about 12 a little bit over 12 years old, and I've, you know, about maybe halfway through that journey, been a part of it. The company had some, you know, really amazing preclinical or animal data at the start, and then we needed to raise some capital to get into humans. And so the company's grown since that, and it was a handful of peep a small handful of people around the table when I first came on board.

Oh, right on. And where is it at now? What's kind of the future of ONL? Where where is it headed?

Yeah. So we we continue to make progress in the clinic. So that is task number one, to take our lead compound through these larger phase two clinical trials across a number of indications. You or your audience may be familiar with phase one is usually safety. Phase two is when you determine safety and efficacy.

And then phase three studies are when you ultimately are gonna file those with the FDA for your labeling for commercialization. So we're still in that middle swath of phase two, and then we need to raise some capital to fund phase three studies. Typically, to the conversation we had earlier, a lot of times, the big companies do look for technologies in that phase two to phase three range. And so we just hope you know, our task is let's just move the technology forward in the clinic. If the science is great, we hope we have the ability to raise the capital to run the next study or attract the interest of others.

Right. So at this point, the drug is actually not being is it being used at all at at some

In clinical trials only. So it's not clinical trials only. Approved products. So we're in phase two clinical trials. And Right.

These these disease states, we're in age related macular degeneration, have the potential to get into a phase two in glaucoma. These are large, slowly progressing diseases. So typically, these studies are two to three years in the making when you think about enrollment and concluding the trial. So it's a long, slow journey to make a difference on these.

Yeah. Bet. Yeah. And so at this stage in business, then, where do you focus your I was going to bring up another conversation about how another noisy space in the world right now is marketing, and and it's changing probably almost as quick as health care is. And and it's I think it's quite mind boggling for a lot of people.

Is that something you guys are struggling with there? Because, I mean, you're not marketing direct product per se, but you are trying to sell an idea and a concept. Right? So how do you manage and navigate yourself through through the noisy world of marketing and and growth?

Yeah. It's it's a terrific question. Even though we're not, you know, commercialization and thinking about traditional marketing, you're exactly right. We have study sites who we need to present a compelling story around our drug and the study we've designed for those researchers, not just the investigators, their clinic staff, and then ultimately, study participants, patients coming into the trial. So there is an element of how do we market to them an effective message.

And all the tools that we see today, social media, the variety of omnichannel, approaches, we take that as as a team to think about that. We're not quite on the sophistication of AI generated hits. You know, it's still very personal and touches with regards to clinics and sites. But those principles of, boy, what what's the, you know, the value driver for somebody to participate in our study versus

Right.

Other studies. It's a competitive space. So we certainly use many of those tools. It's just, a little bit more hands on and and also, have to be very measured in the claims of participating in our study that this is still experimental medication, and we need to highlight the risk as well as the potential benefit for patients and the study sites.

Interesting. Yeah. Actually, I never would have considered that you have to actually find people to participate in your studies. And so how do you how do you actually attract them? And, you know It's

a it's a big deal, Heath, because, we're, you know, we're putting an injection in the eye. You better bet we better have our story tight on it. But, know, like, it's it's an important part of it. In addition, maybe the other side of it is we still have to raise capital to these. So there's certainly the how do we approach venture capital, funding sources, how do we

market Attracting investors.

That's another part of the wheel as well.

Yeah. And, also, I mean, building up you're building up to eventually, at some point, having a product that goes to market. And then at that point, you have a you'll have all that built up behind you to to support that. Interesting.

We we we do get a chance to perhaps maybe optimize the message a little bit now before that kinda work. And a lot of it, at least in our world, these are these are first in class therapeutics, different mechanism of action, so they work differently than other drugs. So those become the underpinnings of a commercial marketing message when you eventually hopefully get approved down the road.

That's right. Right. That makes sense. What what's affecting your day to day right now? Like, what's impacting you, you know, in the company in in today's

world? You know what? Well, I think the the near term work is that, you know, we we fortunately secured a large series d round back in the fall. So the focus now and the challenge is, alright. Let's make product.

Let's get study sites up and running, get the regulatory pathways. We're running this trial in The US and Europe, and Canada. And so make sure the regulatory filings are timely. We're answering the appropriate questions, moving all those to execute on the trial. So those those are the big, day to day, topics that the team is addressing to make sure we can execute the trial well.

I think the the broader, hey. What is the three to five year journey for O and L? And what are those challenges? I think they're always about securing capital for the next round. So that that's an important part.

The public markets play into that. You'll see all these the topics we hear about tariffs and where's medical funding coming from. All of those things near term for us, we're focused on achieving the trials, but you bet you we're picking our heads up and say, alright. What what are we gonna see in the years to come to best position the company to move the technology forward? So those are those become a little bit more strategic choices over time, but, you know, it's it's always a balance we gotta deliver in the near term to even be at the stage to have those conversations.

Yeah. It's a tough spot, I'm sure, to be in to to be not quite ready to put it out there, but still in in, you know, there's there's a there's something there that you've got, and you wanna get it out, but you're not really ready to put it out there. And, yeah, it must be it's almost like, yeah. Let's get this going.

Right. Unfortunately, we're not we're not just flipping on a website. You know? They just say this is like this has got a lot of stuff tied to it.

There's a lot of lot of cogs in that in that in that framework. That's great. What's how about you? How do you what what kind of inspires you every day when you you know, to come come there and and and and take it to the next level every day?

No. It was a wonderful question. I mean, I think, well, one is, it is purposeful work. When you when you get really into it and realize, alright. There are patients who are on a slow path to blindness, and you realize that that's one of the biggest fears of of patients.

Being a healthy living individual and losing sight is a big fear. And so Mhmm. That kind of purposeful work to try to make a difference is very energizing. And to see the team that I'm surrounded with have the kind of energy to go after that is, it's a reason to kinda run the work and get the work done. You know?

It's it's very much that way. And having at least now a little bit of a sense of a thirty year journey, you kinda see that those efforts of the team and the technology can make a real difference in the lives of patients. And that's just a wonderful journey to be on. It's certainly not without its hiccups. I mean, we, like any early stage company, you get a fair a fair share of gut punches that come out of nowhere sometimes.

And Yeah.

You gotta wrestle with them, figure it out, you know, and some of those come down to financing or the product we're developing. But that, you know, that comes with the territory, and you try to just like everybody else, you you dust yourself off and and keep marching towards that long term vision. It's it's, really a wonderful journey that we're on, and the team is terrific and energizing. It's just, it's also there's no easy days in this world. You know?

All those problems have been solved already.

That's great. And while you answered my next question, which was, some advice for people that are in your shoes or, you know, in in in your cert in your particular stage of business growth. And, I just wanted to check-in and see if was there anything else that we you wanted to say or or or share with the audience that, you wanted to kind of put across?

No. Heath, I wanna appreciate the questions and the time. No. The only thing I would say is, you know, a lot of times, people only read about the successful journeys and how it all comes together. You know, the practical reality is any innovation.

I'm in life sciences, but whether it's technology, defense, any of these big complicated, journeys on innovation, most of it doesn't make the, the headlines as being successful venture. But Right. There are good purposeful people working hard, moving things forward that, at the end of the day, contribute to the to the greater good. And that that's what I just remind the audience about that just because you don't read a lot about all the great work going on. There there's a lot of real purposeful hard work doing really complicated stuff to to help us all down the road.

And, anytime we can pass along a little encouragement to those folks, I I think that's a good thing.

Yeah. It's it's good. But, I mean, most people don't know how much is going on behind the scenes, you know, behind every every piece of equipment in the health care industry, every drug that's administered. Like, there there's really no concept of of what goes on to develop all of that, especially at this at the pace it's at right now. But I think, you know, I like I like that you keep bringing it back to why are we doing this and and be reinjecting to yourself.

How why are we doing this? It's for human outcome. It's for making lives better, and it's it's we can bring it back to a more heart centered mission of of of why you're why you're doing what you're doing. Right? What do you think is the next big disruption in in health care and health tech and life science?

Yeah. You know, well, I'll answer maybe one thing that you we do see a lot of work with AI and machine learning, certainly in the tools that in our world, we assess eye disease and the progress of disease in the eye. So I think those and most people would say that, to be able to see that technology emerge, to be able to really identify early stages of disease, and then drug discovery, the ability to see a drug impacting disease sooner than today's technologies is really important, and we'll see some real real advances in that. So I'm excited to see that. The only piece I'd caveat that with, at the end of the day, it does become, at least in our world, people leading those innovations forward.

So teams gotta build it, gotta guide it, all of those. And so as much of the excitement around AI and machine learning are coming, I I do feel, boy, there's there's leaders that need to move that forward efficiently. And that that's, for at least for right now and what you and I can see still irreplaceable to the piece of getting the work done.

Yeah. The technology is there. I mean, it still needs operators. You know? Yeah.

It's just like any other tool we've we've invented over the last, you know, couple hundred years. It's like every tool still needs a good operator who knows how it works and and knows how to get the most out of it. So it's important to always remember that. AI has been you know, it's it just pops up everywhere. It's like, and sometimes you don't even know.

I we'll have things pop up on the screen that says, oh, we're gonna start taking notes for you. And it's like, I don't I didn't sign up for that. So I Do it. Have people pop have things pop. I was talking to somebody earlier about monitors, health monitors, about how, at some point, we'll probably all be wearing health monitors warning us of of our impending doom.

And and based on our genetics, you're more prone to this than that and what you should do and not do. It's interesting to hear sort of all the possibilities. It's like it's like science fiction from when we were kids, you know, and you're and it's it's actually all coming to fruition now, which is it's as exciting, like you say, but also we gotta be very mindful about where we're going with it. For you, share with me any kind of resources or takeaways that, you know, help inspire you on a day to day basis, like books you read or podcasts you listen to or things like that. What do you do to kinda keep yourself motivated?

Yeah. I think, you know, in the in the life science field, there's a lot of good resources. Some of the large venture capital firms, RA Capital's one of them, Andreessen Horowitz, they put out a lot of really good information to, help leaders manage companies more efficiently, think about process, and and that. So I I do become a student of some of these marquee firms that wanna somewhat give back and afford a lot of that guidance out there. So I, you know, I do try to, stay up to speed with those.

I think like most folks, we're always trying to figure out where where where's the truth in all the other stuff we're trying to find and read. But, you know, the variety of podcasts that I think most of us probably listen to, there's, there's a lot of good information out there. But I I do think in my world today and where I'm at, I I stick to kind of the areas that can help, you know, my business and the team go forward. And that's where some of these really, forward thinking, venture firms, General Catalyst, RAI, I mentioned, Endriz and Horowitz, they do they put some good resources out for, myself and a team like me to be able to learn quickly and move forward and not perhaps repeat mistakes that those may have made.

Right. That's good advice. That's good advice for everybody, not just CEOs, but, you know, for for most people in their day to day ads. That's good advice.

Thank you.

Yeah. I think that yeah. David, I think we covered just about everything I wanted to go over. So unless there's anything you wanna add, I think we can

wrap it

up here.

Grateful for the time. Thanks a lot. Look forward to seeing however this comes out, and Yeah. I've really appreciate the invite.

Yeah. Awesome. I'm really glad you took we could set this up and have this conversation. Thanks, David.

You gotta take care of yourself.

Okay. That was a great chat. I really enjoyed talking to David. He has such a wealth of knowledge as a businessman and and working in the health care industry, whether it was mergers and acquisitions, you know, research and development. He seems to have a handle on on corporate culture and and making sure that, you know, not only looking after the business, he's looking after the people.

And I think, you know, his message about no matter how difficult and complicated the health care industry gets or how or or how each in the company gets, that, you know, it's important to step back, reset, and make sure that that people are staying connected to why they're doing what they're doing, and that is making people's lives better, improving patient outcome. And I think that was a great message to take away with, and I hope you enjoyed this episode. So stay tuned. There's more to come. Thanks.